March162012

Men Don’t Listen

daniellemertina:

occasionally pensive: danyphantomzone: Austin talking in all caps: men don’t…

danyphantomzone:

danyphantomzone:

Austin talking in all caps: men don’t listen

daniellemertina:

Really, men hardly listen to women. It’s funny that our whole society and all of our so-called “relationship advice” treats this phenomenon like it’s natural rather than a symptom of patriarchy/ men…

“and what’s nice guy syndrome? so it’s a disorder to treat women with respect? he’s a malfunctioning man?”
It’s a term referring to a state of affairs where guys often do, indeed listen women, while romantic feelings go reciprocated. Aka: Friend Zone, “Nice Guys Finish Last,” ect…
Google is your friend: 

“Nice guy is a term in the general public discourse and in popular culture describing an adult or teenage male with friendly yet unassertive personality traits in the context of a relationship with a woman.[1] A typical nice guy believes in putting the needs of others before his own, avoids confrontations, does favors, gives emotional support, and generally acts nicely towards women.[2] There is an active debate about whether the nice guy personality profile may actually make a man less desirable to women romantically or sexually. Part of this debate includes speculation about hypocrisy among women in the dating world: that women may say they want a nice guy but won’t date him or have sex with him, and rather subconsciously prefer men who are more confident and assertive but less considerate.”
And…
“The terms Nice Guy™ and nice guy syndrome are used in feminist circles to describe men who view themselves as prototypical “nice guys,” but whose “nice deeds” are in reality only motivated by manipulating women into a relationship and/or sex.”

“also, “the father” is my father & I know why he says what he does. Because he’s very sexist.”
My mother is very sexist. I know that feel.

“And why do men like you always whine about being made out to be a whole bunch of uncaring folks?”
1. The title of the piece belies your intention, if you didn’t mean to say we’re all like that.
2. Maybe I take offense to being lumped with abusers, manipulators, etc.
That, plus my concern for people around me is something very important to my identity and self worth.

“and you obviously think that listening to women is a “syndrome” so… ironically, you’re proving the point of the post.”

Now that you know what the term means, I won’t have to respond to this.

lol, I think condescension makes you feel intelligent. Too bad it doesn’t make you intelligent.

As you pointed out, there are several definitions to NGS so I wanted to know which you were using. Obviously the first that sexist men like to use to scapegoat why women don’t love them.

But I didn’t want to assume.

You could have honestly been a good guy who doesn’t want to be lumped with manipulators. Except, you’ve proven to be in the group. You are manipulative in your tone and the way you structure your arguments by only quoting the parts you feel you can argue & not the whole thing. How smart of you.

And you like to argue when you don’t read. That’s also very smart.

It was a personal post. And it’s hilarious how you say that we don’t know context or whatever when I wrote it about my own father, my relationships with previous men, and my relationship now. And nowhere did it say “all” men but okay.

But saying most men don’t listen can be inferred by the post. And you fall into the most category. I’m sorry for your self-worth now as you think you’re actually a good man to women. A Tumblr post just ruined your day I guess since you were SOOO hurt that you had to respond a personal post to talk about how great of a man you actually are.

I suppose women aren’t telling you that in IRL are they?

And a sexist mother? Google is your friend too. Sexism is a manifestation of patriarchy which doesn’t oppress men (we don’t live in a matriarchy… could have looked that up). Unless you were referring to your mother’s internalized sexism, which is different.

(I tried to get the full conversation between DanielleMertina and DanyPhantomZone to post, but for some reason I couldn’t. Sorry guys!)
Just a warning, this is going to be a long post. So pull up a chair, pop some popcorn, get comfy. 

Wow, okay. The sum of the whole conversation (this was reblogged and commented on several times before I saw it) is that DanielleMertina (the OP) made a post about how many men are conditioned not to listen to women, and women are often told that they are “nagging” when they voice an opinion that differs from a man’s. She made several valid arguments and used her father’s behavior as anecdotal evidence. Definitely worth reading from the beginning.

Then this DanyPhantomZone guy decides to tell her about how the men who actually listen to women are vilified for it, and talks about how most “Nice Guys” are friend-zoned because of it. (Um, really? 1: No, most “Nice Guys” only pretend to listen to get into a girl’s pants, and 2: Your argument only proves her point that men are conditioned to not take women seriously.) Then, to prove his point, he posts lyrics to Ke$ha’s extremely transphobic song, “Grow A Pear”. (While the song is offensive, it still doesn’t say that the guy listening to her was the problem. It mentions him “whining” and “bitching” but never ”listening”.)
Also, are we really going to use Ke$ha as an example of women in general? I bet even Ke$ha would be opposed to that. 

Now, let’s break down the definition of “Nice Guy” that he posted for us.
 “Nice guy is a term in the general public discourse and in popular culture describing an adult or teenage male with friendly yet unassertive personality traits in the context of a relationship with a woman.[1] A typical nice guy believes in putting the needs of others before his own, avoids confrontations, does favors, gives emotional support, and generally acts nicely towards women.[2] There is an active debate about whether the nice guy personality profile may actually make a man less desirable to women romantically or sexually. Part of this debate includes speculation about hypocrisy among women in the dating world: that women may say they want a nice guy but won’t date him or have sexwith him, and rather subconsciously prefer men who are more confident and assertive but less considerate.”
Wow. Um, how about pretends to put the needs of others before his own, does favors, gives emotional support, all in order to get a girl to sleep with him.” And the whole “hypocrisy among women in the dating world” is a myth. You see, the “jerks” and “douchebags” out there are not a mysterious group of motorcycle-riding bad boys that women swoon over. The REAL jerks are the men who pretend to be nice and caring just to sleep with a woman, also known as "Nice Guys". 

As DanielleMertina so eloquently put it, 
"You could have honestly been a good guy who doesn’t want to be lumped with manipulators. Except, you’ve proven to be in the group. You are manipulative in your tone and the way you structure your arguments by only quoting the parts you feel you can argue & not the whole thing. How smart of you." 

DanielleMertina was making a personal post about sexism and oppression she’s faced, and this “Nice Guy” decided to make it about him, whine about how “not all guys are like that!” then proceeded to prove that he is, in fact, just like that. 

While Nice Guy Syndrome is something I normally just roll my eyes at and make fun of, DanielleMertina’s post (and the argument that followed) really made me think. It really is a reflection on our society’s expectations of men when these “Nice Guys” can claim that they listen to women, as though it’s something above and beyond the expected. Women never say “I always listen to men, unlike those other girls!” as a way to get men to date them.  It would be odd, because women are expected to listen to men anyway. Dating advice often lists listening to your girlfriend/wife as something nice a man can do for her, and not something that should be taken for granted.

It’s pretty fucked up if you ask me. 

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